Cows and the good life
Interview with Samia Mahé
Samia Mahé is an ethics lecturer at the Institut Supérieur de Design de Saint-Malo. For “Philosophy in the Wild”, she is collaborating with Katell Lorre, the co-founder and guardian of a Natura 2000 site in the North of France (Armorica, Brittany), and Virginie Blanville who is educational manager of the Master’s program in Design and Living Worlds at the Higher Design Institute of Saint-Malo.
In this interview, we chat about Samia’s interest in the role of reasons and feelings in ethics, her experience with the immersive workshop for students at Katell’s farm — and how to negotiate with a cowncer! What’s that? That is a cow who has decided to become a bouncer.
Salut Samia, thank you so much for taking the time for this interview. I am really excited to hear how your workshop went — but we’ll start with a bit of philosophy! Can you explain why you think that feelings matter in ethics?
Hello Mara. It’s a pleasure to share this conversation and to be involved in the Philosophy in the Wild project. Thank you for the opportunity!
I believe that philosophical analysis enables us to logically clarify our thoughts, to develop our rationality, and, as a consequence, our practical wisdom—that is, our capacity to make good decisions for ourselves in everyday life. For me, that is important in Aristotle’s philosophy. But Aristotle also allows us to accommodate feelings.
Aristotelian philosophy is also a philosophy that starts from simple truths grounded in everyday experience. Sometimes I thought about my grandfather’s attitudes and the relationship I had with him when thinking about Aristotle’s Nichomachean Ethics. It really helped me to grasp in a simple way what learning virtues and values is about. On the other hand, that view of ethics helped me in real life, going through and healing from grief when he passed away. In particular, to learn to develop my own way when facing ethical or loyalty dilemmas.
Some readers will know Martha Nussbaum’s work. But in Midgley, too, I find this integrated view of humans as both rational and emotional beings. This is what we share with many other animals.
As for your activities for “Philosophy in the Wild. Finding Hope in Mixed Communities” , could you please tell us what an ‘immersive workshop’ is?
An immersive workshop is a designed experience that enables specific kinds of learning to occur directly, through conscious, embodied, and social experience in a particular environment. In this case, Katell Lorre welcomes small groups for workshops on a parcel of land in Armorica which she guards as a mixed-species community, respecting both the biodiversity of habitats and the freedom of the animals who live there. (There are limits to the parcels though…)
This immersive workshop welcomes students in the Master’s program in Design, conceived of by Virginie Blanville and where I teach theoretical and applied ethics. The workshop is part of the program’s curriculum, in continuity with the coursework. This format has at least two major benefits: first, it grounds philosophical subjects in lived experience. This helps avoid the risk of overly abstract teaching, which may otherwise lack real utility or relevance—or fail to be empowering or insightful. Secondly, this level of experience allows us to address multiple philosophical issues at once: interspecies relationships, emotional needs, awareness of one’s reactions in group dynamics, aesthetic preferences, values associated with nature experiences, questions of biodiversity preservation and the protection of natural habitats, and more.
I’m almost tempted to say that this pedagogical format helps reduce the anxiety of philosophy teachers who want to share a lot of knowledge while also conveying strong values and respecting students’ intellectual freedom. It also provides an opportunity to revisit discussions later, perhaps using practice-based analysis formats, and integrating contemporary metaethical theories. Taken together, I believe this approach can genuinely contribute to improving the experience of life in society.
Mara: I love this feedback loop between experience and philosophy! Now, the place you are covering is both a “Natura 2000” site and a “farm”, or “ferme”: la Petite Ferme d'Emeraude. Katell is the farmer there, but not in the conventional sense. I think many people are very interested to learn how relationships with “farm animals” can be non-exploitatitive and non-coercive. Do you think they get to lead wild or wilder lives?
Samia: According to Katell, they must still be considered as domesticated because they are socialized with human beings. However, they have had to regain their natural instincts while remaining in contact with humans, and more specifically with their human being, as Katell says. Interestingly, they are thus even more socialized than conventional farm animals. “Their” is a word-for-word translation, I am not sure that it conveys the same meaning as in casual French, where it suggests that the animals have special attachment feelings and affection towards Katell. But it also appears to me that “their”/“leur” evokes something of a coercive or at least power and symbolic dimension of an affective relationship, linked to belonging. As far as I can see for now, belonging – in the sense of property or ownership more than affiliation – might assign an identity-status difficult to reconcile with the nature of life though it might be a social/organisational reality in different species.
Hm! Perhaps “their”/“leur” – possessive pronouns in general – just remind us that relations of “possession” and “belonging” entail the upside of care and attention but also the downside of control or dependency. Which is why I personally don’t think that the ethics of human-animal-relations should always be about more and deeper relations - such a complex topic! But I suppose it is a feature of identity, and also of community, that they produce exclusions – but then, time and other means permitting, we can also belong to more than one community and different aspects of one’s identity – our different identities – can be important and pronounced in different temporal and spatial ways. And this is certainly not just a human thing - identity, community. Please tell me about this sentinel cow who seems to be able to make very fine distinctions – about which human belongs where.
I take this question very seriously, because it turns out that the two topics are closely connected, at least from the perspective I’ve developed through my understanding of Mary Midgley’s philosophy. For example, in Chapter 10 of Animals and Why They Matter, which addresses the social, cognitive and emotional foundations of human relationships with non-human animals, it becomes clear that the capacity to "relate"—that is, to enter into and form relationships, or in other words, to "socialize"—rests on a sensitivity rooted in shared natural capacities, not always consciously or explicitly acknowledged.
From this perspective, the species we call “wild” are those whose natural dispositions lead them to pay attention to and seek out things that are independent from human interests, preferences, tastes, or attachments. It’s hard to imagine forming a friendship with a slug or an ant, for instance, but it’s remarkable that human beings are nonetheless capable of developing feelings that motivate care for living beings that don’t directly provide them with satisfaction. If I’m not mistaken, in this philosophy, such feelings are or can still be considered virtuous and rational.
What seems especially important to me is that Katell Lorre’s role in leading the immersive workshop is essential because it helps to "bridge the epistemic gap" between non-human animals and humans. Through both the relationship she maintains with the animals living on this parcel of land and her knowledge about them—both individually and generally—she ensures good communication between visitors and the “natives,” so to speak, which guarantees safety on both sides and allows for a genuine connection to occur.
Just to give one example: her presence and work facilitate a climate conducive to interspecies communication regarding the role of the "sentinel cows." Here is how she explains it:
"Sentinel cows are the individuals in the herd who take on the role of lookout. Every animal group has them. [The parcel is home to cows, goats, donkeys, horses, and a dog.] They are the ones who keep watch and sound the alarm as soon as they notice something unusual. This alerts the decision-makers. Basically, the idea is that they warn the decision-makers, who then decide how to respond—whether to take action or not. My role is to ensure that they don’t need to take action when I’m present, unless I give them the signal to do so."
That makes sense. Must have been a privilege to witness. On to my FAQ (Final amusing question): What is your favourite scent?
It’s not easy to answer that question! I believe it depends partly on my moods or the situation.